minoanmiss | Personal Note on a Societal Issue

Note To Self

Self,

do not get involved in a discussion of cultural appropriation.

Because eventually some White dude will tell you that because he smokes pot he knows more about Jamaican culture than you do, and his sister will unapologetically relate how she used to call her sixth grade classmate a "dothead" but now she realized "Indian stuff is so _cool_" so she wears a bindi everywhere, and then the top of your head will explode.

You know how these discussions go. Just stay away.

ETA So I felt bad about posting a chunk of exasperation without context. Make no mistake -- the above is a chunk of exasperation, not a well organized political statement. My actual views -- well, I'm obsessed with a culture from thousands of years before present whom I'm likely not at all related to. BUT. I do sometimes think about how modern Greeks and Greek-Americans would feel about how I talk about the Minoans. And that's with the closest thing to my having privilege over people from Greece being that I am a left-hand dark-skinned child of the rapacious British commonwealth which plundered Greece's cultural treasures and trafficked in my ancestors.

It's just that a lot of things people say in these discussions annoy me. "Well my internet friend in Madhras says I can wear a saree anywhere I want so if you, raised in Hackensack and mocked your whole childhood for being from India, are uncomfortable with that, then you can shut up." "By smoking pot I connect to the essential thoughtstream of Jamaican soul culture, man." "Well if I can buy a dreamcatcher why can't I wear a feather headdress? Check and mate, liberal!" I just wish people would consider their privileges and other people's experiences of racism more. But that would require 1) nuance and 2) empathy.

In conclusion people are annoying.

Current Mood: cynical

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

bikergeek

No. Not with a 39½ foot pole.

Also, people who think that Jamaican culture is entirely and exactly equal to Rastafarianism were really fucking annoying to me 35 years ago, long before I was dating anyone from that culture. As a fan of reggae music at that time in my life, I ran into quite a few people like that.

Edited Date: 2021-07-14 02:59 pm (UTC)

From:

minoanmiss

This is one of the millions of reasons I love you.

From:

lemonsharks

Here, I will bring some conversation to you:

Cultural sharing:

Wearing a sari and bindi as bridesmaid to your Hindu friend at her Hindu wedding

Cultural appropriation:

Wearing a bindi and "sari-inspired" fast fashion crop top to Cochella

Cultural appreciation:

Reading south asian writers while enjoying a nice masala chai

Cultural sharing:

Attending your brother and Diné SIL's baby's first laugh ceremony and rolling with it if mom's family pokes some fun at your attempts to pronounce words.

Cultural appreciation:

Going to a pow-wow and enjoying the dancing, eating the fry bread, and buying the souvenirs at the price given to you

Cultural appropriation:

Using an unspeakable (sacred? or simply too dangerous to name?) Indigenous spirit/creature as monster of the week in your white manpain monster hunting show.

Cultural sharing:

Offering your practically a venue anyway Beautiful Family Property to your work friend for their daughter's quinceñera. And showing up to the party with a gift!

Cultural appreciation:

Buying a bag of tamales from your local tamale lady. (Bonus appreciation points for having a brief conversation with her en español, once/if you have determined that is her primary language)

Cultural appropriation:

As a white (/WASPy) chef, stuffing larb into masa dough and passing that "creation" off as something wholly new, unique, and original. Selling your horror show for $45/plate in the restaurant space that used to be a bodega. Complaining about how racism caused your restaurant to fail.

Speaking of cultural sharing, how do you feel about plantain tarts? And is 1 tsp nutmeg per 3 plantains too much nutmeg? That sounds like a lot of nutmeg.

Edited Date: 2021-07-14 03:34 pm (UTC)

From:

minoanmiss

You, you get it. But I knew you would.

I wonder if the plantain tarts are based on the red plantain tarts I knew as a kid (the Portugese loved tarts and even though they were in Jamaica for like a decade they left some tarts behind). But yeah 1 tsp nutmeg is way too much -- the recipe must have been developed with pre-ground nutmeg, aka sawdust. I'd use a half tsp of fresh grated.

(also the larb/masa monster will haunt my nightmares)

From:

lemonsharks

Jamaica took the only good thing the Portuguese had to offer and ran with it.

If one is going to do a thai-mex fusion ft. larb, put that salad on a soft corn tortilla and serve with some roasted salsa (verde o rojo) for dipping. And lime. Everything can benefit form a squeeze of lime.

From:

tibicina

Tarts, frying battered things, braising in vinegar, and dried sausages.

So much yummy food in the world based on stuff the Portuguese got people to cook for them.

(Vindaloo, adobo, and adobado are all based on the same Portuguese/Spanish dish.)

Also now I want the variation on the egg tarts with coconut and raisins.

From:

minoanmiss

There's a Jamaican coconut tart called a gizzada, we could probably put raisins in.

From:

ororo

May I copy and share this? My FB is limited to friends-only as is my DW. It's a fabulous example and I think more people should see it.

From:

lemonsharks

Absolutely! Share away!

From:

lemonsharks

you may want to clarify Dine (Navajo), since the people's name for themselves is less commonly used

From:

hitchhiker

that's great!

From:

kore

Aww yeah these are great. (Going to the powwow! I miss those.)

From:

lferion

This is a really excellent set of examples. Thank you!

From:

ckd

This is wonderful. Thank you.

From:

magid

I have a question: if I buy traditional clothing from a native of that tradition, is it cultural appreciation or appropriation if I wear it outside my house? (I have a wonderful embroidered dress I haven't worn outside in at least a decade because I am so not clear if it's ok or not.)

From:

lemonsharks

The most common consensus I've seen among artisans is, "appreciation, but not for halloween or costume parties, please". Knowing the artist's name/shop is also helpful.

(disclaimer: only my opinion etc etc)

From:

magid

Oh, no, I'd totally be wearing it as clothes, not costume! Heck, I can avoid the weeks around Halloween and Purim pretty easily.

(As for the shop, well, it was a not-quite-tiny shop in the Arab Quarter in the old city part of Jerusalem. I don't think I noticed the name of the place when I was there, much less this long after. I do remember chatting with the owner while I browsed, though!)

And thank you. One opinion from an informed person is useful.

From:

minoanmiss

I don't know if there's Just One Answer, but i thnk Lemonsharks has a wise rubric.

From:

cellio

Well-said!

From:

cmcmck

People most certainly are!

From:

sabotabby

Nuke it from fuckin' orbit.

From:

jesse_the_k

Yep.

From:

kore

Well if I can buy a dreamcatcher why can't I wear a feather headdress?

Ohhh man, growing up in Santa Fe, so many dreamcatchers. So, so many dreamcatchers. Usually mini ones dangling from rear-view mirrors in cars.

From:

minoanmiss

I just hope they were properly purchased or gifted (even though that sounds like Dreamcatcher Overload).

A dear friend bought me a dreamcatcher at a powwow she attended, and it really has helped my sleep. But sometimes I look up at it and wonder if the people who made and sold it would want to sell their cultural patrimony if they didn't need resources after suffering centuries of violence and dispossession. But how can I ask such a question either way? It would be presumptuous at best with so much possibility to be so much worse. So I look up at my dreamcatcher and hope that the person who made it viewed it the way I view my candy when I mail it out to my friends, as a piece of her creativity and culture going out in the world.

From:

kore

Nooo, they were mass produced probably in an overseas factory, or maybe in the eighties in a factory in Ohio or somewhere, and called "authentic" like the "kachina dolls" everyone had on their fake kiva fireplaces. It was a whole Thing. Ditto "sand paintings" that were glued onto backings and framed and hung over the fake kiva fireplaces. I should think a dreamcatcher a friend bought for you at a powwow is really different! Not just in being made by someone in that actual culture, but something willingly shared. I personally think it's not only selling cultural patrimony, maybe, but also a way of keeping that cultural capital alive and supporting the people who choose to make it, as another side to the tourists-buying-souvenirs economy.

From:

minoanmiss

Oh ewwww mass produced dreamcatchers from some factory somewhere. ugh.

I should think a dreamcatcher a friend bought for you at a powwow is really different! Not just in being made by someone in that actual culture, but something willingly shared.

I certainly hope so and want to believe so. :)

From:

kore

Yes, me too!

From:

acelightning73

I asked the woman in the booth whether this was a "real" dreamcatcher, and she let me touch it and determine that it was. She also said, "You have to add something of your own to it," so I did.

I passed a booth near the powwow entrance that was full of dreamcatchers made out of gaudily colored polyester ribbon, and I walked right past because those are for the tourists, and I'm not a tourist :-)

From:

minoanmiss

beams and hugs you gratefully

From:

acelightning73

I hope they have a powwow this year! Having the drumbeat and constant chanting in the background as I shopped, and while I ate fry-bread, felt very good.

From:

acelightning73

About the only thing I do that goes back to my ancestral heritage is I feast on corn and turkey in November, remembering to thank the native people who taught the stupid strangers how to grow corn and what animals were worth the effort to hunt, and who even gave them some of their own stored food, because otherwise my Puritan ancestors would have starved to death before they had descendants. (Although those Pilgrims also raided places where Natives had cached food, and stole what they wanted.)

When I worked at the UN, the tour guide, no matter their ethnicity, wore saris. Most of them were disciples of a guru who had set up shop in the city, and they said that the Guru wanted women to wear saris because it made them look more feminine and graceful. I asked one of them to show me how to put on a sari, and she did, but I only know the one way (there are plenty of YouTube videos about different ways to wrap a sari). It feels odd to move around with that much loose fabric flapping around one's body. (I don't even like normal European skirts or dresses!)

From:

annonynous

My spouse and I have had a dreamcatcher hanging by our bedroom window for decades. The little facts sheet that came with it gives no clue as to its provenance. It is lovely to look at, even if it doesn't catch anything.

Myself, I like to think of it as a nightmare catcher, which would be a really useful and more specific function.

Ann O.

From:

lemonsharks

BUT. I do sometimes think about how modern Greeks and Greek-Americans would feel about how I talk about the Minoans.

Ok, anecdata here, but I have never encountered a Greek person who was not extremely excited and enthusiastic about other people studying and appreciating their culture. Japan is similar in that respect: people from Japan are often very enthusiastic about people from other cultures admiring and participating in their culture.

Diasporic individuals, especially younger ones/, can be more protective of culture.

The Japanese artisan who sells us a kimono on our trip to Japan, and teaches us how to wear it and care for it respectfully probably won't be thrilled if it stays in a box forever. They definitely won't be thrilled if it purchased at all because cultural appropriation. The 15 year old Japanese American kid who's spent their entire life facing anti-asian hate and racist bullying is probably going to be, rightfully, big mad that we have more and better access to their culture, and own a culturally significant item that they do not own or can't use without getting shit for it.

Anyway insert PhD thesis on diasporic vs nondiasporic relationships to culture here.

And another one about american individualism being a terrible combination with America assimilationist agenda. Wanna know why american white people are so obsessed with what kind of white people we are? That's why.