opinions that could get me in trouble

[minoanmiss]

Warning: you may disagree with me. A lot.

John Walker is who Tony Stark's fandom thinks Steve Rogers was. By which I mean -- anyone who doesn't know that Steve Rogers is actually a tiny disabled guy wearing a non-removable muscle suit doesn't actually know Steve Rogers, and I think people whose characterization of Tony Stark is that he's a "female-coded" character and that Steve and Bucky beating him up at the end of Civil War was a rape (a very popular piece of meta in MCU fandom, shows up on my dash every few months, I should go find a link) don't know Steve Rogers. They think he's that big muscular guy all the way down, who doesn't understand the restrictions that should be placed on power, and that's who John Walker actually is.

Marie Kondo, or at least the flanderization of her created by many of her fans, appeals to a certain kind of liberal anti-intellectualism. "People who own books are elitist and bourgeois and racist for doing so and you don't have to listen to them, you can freely despise them. Your ignorance is equal to their knowledge." She didn't actually say that and yet so many people basically used her as support for saying so that I can never see her name and not hear "no one needs that many books" echoing in the back of my head. I still want to find certain people and ask them if after a year of lockdown they still believe that.

Also Sam Wilson and Rhodey are really not interchangeable characters in many many ways. But that's enough grumping for now.

(And underlying all of these, I so wish people could 1) cut tag and 2) tag. Trying to block content doesn't work if people refuse to do those.)

ETA: I felt bad about citing an essay I hadn't linked to. Here's the Fanlore Link: https://fanlore.org/wiki/Tony_Stark_as_the_most_female-coded_superhero
and a rebuttal: https://thehollowprince.tumblr.com/post/179816067919/tony-stark-is-not-coded-as-a-woman-as-a-poc-or
and sovay's essay on who Steve Rogers is as presented in his first movie: https://sovay.dreamwidth.org/495958.html

Comments

[bikergeek]

Agreed on Marie Kondo. The "No one needs more than 30 books" thing is an oversimplification.

And ... just because they're both Black does NOT meant two characters are interchangeable! FFS!

[minoanmiss]

It's just that in EVERY discussion there's someone, or a bunch of someones, who says "once you've read a book why do you need to keep it?" Do these people memorize and then discard cookbooks? History books? anatomy books? Do they not keep multiple books by the same author and compare them? Do they think if it's not in print it's not worth reading?

To say nothing of the people who snark about "people who own books instead of having a personality", etc. The rant that set me off tonight was a bunch of screenshots (so my filters missed it) about how the only reason someone wouldn't adopt Marie Kondo's methods was racism. This isn't the only other reason (I haven't even gotten into my issues with the whole Minimalist Lifestyle Keep Nothing But Money And Buy What You Need thing) but, well, I had to go look at my books. And then write a grumpy entry.

[sovay]

By which I mean -- anyone who doesn't know that Steve Rogers is actually a tiny disabled guy wearing a non-removable muscle suit doesn't actually know Steve Rogers, and I think people whose characterization of Tony Stark is that he's a "female-coded" character and that Steve and Bucky beating him up at the end of Civil War was a rape (a very popular piece of meta in MCU fandom, shows up on my dash every few months, I should go find a link) don't know Steve Rogers.

I agree entirely with the first half of this sentence and am blinking jaw-dropped at the second.

I don't disagree about left-wing anti-intellectualism, either, I just hate it.

[minoanmiss]

Yeah, that essay was a doozy, and it kind of kills me that it has 100K or so notes . But if I cite it any further I really should go find it.

Left wing anti-intellectualism really bothers me. Even with all the terrible distortions that society and its biases and bigotries put on the pursuit of knowledge, I think that the basic idea of pursuing knowledge is worthwhile and it makes me so sad when people take the "my ignorance is equal to your knowledge" tack.

[baranduin]

Wait a minute. It's a non-removable muscle suit? I mean, I knew he was a not-muscular guy and went through a process, I just didn't know that was the process. Thank you.

[minoanmiss]

ahahah I'm being metaphorical about the 'muscle suit'.

In all versions of Steve Rogers' canon that I know of (MCU, other movies, comics, other comics) he is a thin, sometimes ill guy (in the movie his list. of ailments is longer than his arm, ahahaha) who goes through a "scientific" process that turns him big and muscular. The doctor who performed the process is then assassinated.

In the MCU movie there's a famous line where Dr. Erskine (who performed the process and who chose Steve) explains, "So, good becomes great. Bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen. Because a strong man, who has known power all his life, will lose respect for that power. But a weak man knows the value of strength, and knows compassion."

And, well, you know me, I hold grudges. I still remember the half year after the Civil War movie where Tony Stark's fandom told 'the other side' that we were actual terrible people IRL. I lost an actual IRL friend over that. So I found myself thinking about The Falcon and the Winter Soldier tonight, and realized this -- all the terrible descriptions of Steve-as-a-bad-guy which I heard from Team Iron that year actually fit John Walker.

[goss]

Sam Wilson and Rhodey are really not interchangeable characters

Really, people? REALLY?

I...no words. Only headdesk.


a very popular piece of meta in MCU fandom, shows up on my dash every few months

WHAT. THE. OKay, you know what. I'm just gonna leave that one alone. lol.

You know, Chinese drama fandom seems kinda wild at times, but I feel like MCU is on a whole other level. *backs away slowly*

[minoanmiss]

MCU is on a level only superseded by a very few fandoms indeed. sigh and yet I cannot quit it. gazes at Sam Wilson on the wing

[kore]

I'm already sick of hearing about John Walker and how much post-EG Steve sucks. I would like the show about SAM BEING CAP, but apparently that has to wait for a goddamn movie so they can make a billion dollars.

I heard "you don't need THAT MANY books" so often as a kid (and still hear it today!) that the distortion of the KonMari method you talk about really hits me hard. I hate happy book-culling posts, I wish people would tag for THOSE.

people whose characterization of Tony Stark is that he's a "female-coded" character and that Steve and Bucky beating him up at the end of Civil War was a rape

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT. //Daveed Diggs in Hamilton

[minoanmiss]

I ended up having an attack of conscience and putting a link to that essay at the end of my original post. I included some antidotes, because.

(Also *big warm hugs* you know why. :)

[cmcmck]

Has Ms Kondo ever met an academic historian I wonder?

There are two of us and we don't just have books, we have a library and read across four languages between us. When one writes, one has to refer- it's not difficult to understand, surely? Are we supposed to have retained the content of over a thousand volumes?

And history doesn't stand still- it changes, constantly!

[minoanmiss]

I don't know, but I suspect a lot of the people citing her advice as an argument against book ownership actively disapprove of things like historiography.

[alexseanchai]

Marie Kondo told someone whose pen collection makes him happy to buy more pens. They're not clutter because they make him happy.

Her problem is not with people having books generally; she would not suggest anyone cull their book collection unless the book collection does not make them happy. (So people who have books for display as status symbols, I expect, and people who haven't touched stuff by particular authors in years but still have the paperbacks, and not many others.) She personally doesn't feel the need for more than about thirty books. People keep citing that line as though she's saying no one should have more than about thirty books, but that is not what she said.

[ororo]

Steve Rogers is that 98-pound weakling who threw his ass on what he thought was a live grenade. Sure John Walker might have thrown himself on a grenade but you bet your ass he was wearing full tactical gear.

I'm not sharing your fandoms where you've heard these theories. I'm not even sure what 'Tony Stark is female-coded' means, so I can't address that.

No way in hell are Rhodey and Sam interchangeable. That's just ridiculous.

I avoid Marie Kondo because I don't like housecleaning and because I think minimalism is classist as hell. I avoid Martha Stewart for the same reason. I also don't want to be told how to run my house by people who are monetizing traditional gender roles that I don't want to be forced into in the first place. I pay a very nice woman to clean my apartment for a reason.

[minoanmiss]

Ahahahah I should probably avoid fandom more and be happier thereby.

[princessofgeeks]

I don't know who John Walker is and I'm kind of glad I don't.

I am so glad that I took one look at Marie Kondo and went NOPE. On the other hand I know people who were really struggling with their clutter and she gave them a good way of getting started.

But NO ONE gets to tell me how many books are too many. Books are not like random possessions like shoes or T shirts.

When my son moved into his own apartment he had (I am not kidding; I counted) 100 T shirts. I made him go through them all and cut back to about 20.

But books? Never.

[minoanmiss]

John Walker is the fake Captain America dude from _The Falcon and the Winter Soldier_.

I am so glad that I took one look at Marie Kondo and went NOPE. On the other hand I know people who were really struggling with their clutter and she gave them a good way of getting started.


Yeah, exactly. But why can't people say "this worked well fro me" instead of "if you don't want to do this you are a hoarder and/or a racist?" and I don't trust the 'sparks joy' rubric. I was a Christian for too long to not know that people are very willing to tell others (such as me) what should/does spark our joy, instead of taking our word for it.

[eller]

Wait - owning books is racist now, too? I missed that one - but I guess I'm the next Hitler, then... And mysteriously okay with that. O_O Also, I wouldn't call that attitude "liberal". In the original sense of the word (derived from, you know, freedom), it isn't. In its own way, it's a brand of a very illiberal thinking. Of course, anti-intellectualism is a very comfortable mindset: you're allowed to be stupid and be proud of it. It's awesome... (Actually... WAIT. Thinking this through a bit further - if you consider books and education and stuff a WHITE thing... Isn't that racist as hell?!? Wow. It's really difficult to keep up with this woke stuff. Especially when it comes to debating with people who consider logical reasoning a brand of white neo-colonialism, too.)

Also, you can only afford minimalism if you're wealthy enough to know for sure that if you need anything, you'll be able to buy it at a moment's notice. I hate it when rich people tell poor people they don't need more stuff because, hey, they live minimalist too... Except, nope, not the same thing at all! Disgusting, really. I grew up in a household in which old stuff had to be hoarded because if it broke, it was gone, so, uh I have an opinion when it comes to minimalist-living &%$%§$.

I suppose I shouldn't complain too much: when I got my first own apartm... uh... room, I was able to salvage a whole, really nice home furnishing from the trash. Marie-Kondo-style consumerism that makes people throw away perfectly useable - and valuable - things is fascinating... I guess that doesn't keep me from having an opinion about the people who actually do this, though. More like the opposite.

[minoanmiss]

I think a lot of this is a particularly US-flavored kind of liberalism, where in a country where naked bigotry is a mainstream political position anything to the left of that is considered ever so liberal, and where fundamentalist Christianity style morality still applies even when people aren't ostensibly fundies anymore. And a lot is the human tendency to find a way to 'prove' that something one dislikes is Evil.

But yeah, the argument goes "people have been racist towards Marie Kondo" (sadly true) "so any criticism of her methods, or even pushback against those who deliberately misinterpreted her comments about books in order to use them to attack bibliophiles, is based in racism", which, no. [insert 500 words where I discuss my experiences of racism in the US and how to differentiate between racist calumny and actual disagreement, because I am tired]

In conclusion people are often exhausting. *grins at you*

[sabotabby]

Wow. I agree with your grumps.

That first bit of meta is jaw-droppingly fucked up. Did they watch the same movies I did?

Marie Kondo is fine and valid but she's really for rich people. Poor people, and middle class people (especially middle class people who grew up poor) can't afford to live minimally. You never know if you might need a thing.

I love Sam Wilson's character and tbh, I don't love Rhodey. I found him kind of bland and underwritten. Sam was underused but well-written enough to give a sense of depth. They're not remotely interchangeable.

[minoanmiss]

I ended up having an attack of conscience and putting a link to that essay at the end of this post. And yeah, I found myself thinking "did they see the same movie I did?" in 2015 a LOT.

One day when I really want to upset people I'm going to write an Essay From The Perspective Of One Black Girl about Rhodey embodying Respectability Politics and Sam embodying the refutation thereof.

[musesfool]

Ugh Tony stans. I am with you on all of that and also your John Walker opinion is good and you should feel good about it. I'm so glad I never saw that Tony meta and now I will proceed to forget it ever existed because otherwise it will make me really angry.

I thought this comparison of Tony and Thor was pretty spot-on.

[minoanmiss]

I LOVE that meta about Thor and Tony. it's cogent.

whew. that got long

[jadelennox]

I agree on all these counts. Yet, the foolish interpretation of Steve is also supported by canon. Unfortunately, there's a subset of MCU (and Marvel comics) writers who get Steve Rogers entirely wrong (I'm defining wrong as "I don't like it, because among other things it's artistically insipid and misunderstand the nature of people").

The thing about massive superhero franchises is that they're not just written by committee, but often assembled after the fact in post-prod out of component filmed snippets, partly but not entirely because the producers and the studio have handed down rules about characterization and theme, and it sometimes really shows.

After ep2 of FATWS, A and I had a long talk about how the MCU is now stuck in a position where they don't have the courage of their convictions. They made the Snap happen, but refuse to commit to the effect that would have on society. Half the farmers, shippers, manufacturers, consumers, parents of small children, doctors, people who work at the sewage plant, people who protect the nuclear reactors, sanitation workers just vanish. And then come back. And in the end society looks the same but with unrest and also some refugees, which is to say, exactly the same. They want to make a more "realistic" world than the comics, so it's not a world where metahumans just form superhero teams For Reasons -- but then they want constant conflict, and so they fail to explain why these people meet up. And they don't even care about half the details here, clearly: where do the resources come from? Why does Sam have the suit if it's government property? They don't care! Why are Sam and Bucky working together? Because Reasons, that's why.

And because the characterizations are inconsistent, fans can inscribe any interpretation of the characters that makes sense upon them. I agree with your characterization, because it's the one that makes sense to me and is narratively rich. But fandom has always thought more about the characters than Kevin Feige has, and it has not even occurred to more of the MCU writers that Steve is a tiny disabled poor kid, that he almost certainly grew up a pro-union antifacist if not a socialist, that he canonically leads the only integrated WWII unit, that the New York of his youth was as much Emma Goldman as it was anything else. Many of the writers are just, like, "hurr hurr old man from olden times." They're just as bad with Bucky, for the most part. Which is a boring interpretation of humanity, if nothing else!

Because the movies are written by committee, the ugly interpretations and the interesting interpretations can all be supported by the text. That's even more true of the comics! Jingoistic bully Steve is a relatively recent development and a terrible one, but we can't deny he's supported by an ugly corner of canon history.

Separately from that fandom has always had an annoying strain of bashing any characters who ever conflict with their faves, ever. And making them insipidly one-note. And also of explaining how this big handsome white cishet characters played by a famous handsome white cishet actor is actually queer-coded or poc-coded, because that way we don't have to interrogate how our own preferences were shaped in the kyriarchy, and we don't have to worry if we're part of the problem because there are almost twice as many AO3 stories about a movie's white male nerd side character as there are about the woman of color who is the same movie's co-star, and three times as many for the white guy as there are for the black man who plays a secondary character who is the heart of the film, the climactic hero, and is played by someone who's been named a Sexiest Man Alive multiple times. Because what you like is what you like, and people shouldn't feel bad about it, but fandom is really into feeling like what they like is Good and Pure and Perfect. (eg. It's fine to prefer Loki to Sam Wilson, but people also want to feel Right for preferring Loki to Sam Wilson, as if their preferences aren't shaped by living in an imperfect world. So they build up ridiculous fanon to build Loki up and smack Sam Wilson down - or name any other two characters in similar circumstances - so they never have to think about how what they like is a product of a messed up system that's shaped us all.)

Re: whew. that got long

[gloss]

explaining how this big handsome white cishet characters played by a famous handsome white cishet actor is actually queer-coded or poc-coded, because that way we don't have to interrogate how our own preferences were shaped in the kyriarchy, and we don't have to worry if we're part of the problem
Oh, WORD. A thousand times, word. Beautifully stated (and supported!).

[corvidology]

I'm not in the MCU fandom so can't really respond to those bits but I'm very confused by "Iron Man is female-coded" because what the hell type of sexual stereotyping is that anyway?

Also, most of the 'big muscular guys' I personally know are very sweet so... erm...

As to the books. In which I fail to be PC yet again... I've heard John Waters speak several times and one of the things he always brings up is 'if you go home with someone and they have no books don't fuck them." I'll just get my coat...

[minoanmiss]

ahahahah John Waters is a very weird man with many wise ideas or a very wise man with many weird ideas. I mean, if nothing else, I need something to read in the middle of the night when I wake up in an unfamiliar bed (if nothing else).

Sometimes I wonder if I'm too nostalgic about fandom, treating the current what-passes-for-meta as seriously as the essays of yesterday. Then I remind myself about all the essays that used to piss me off back in the day.

[dhampyresa]

I don't know who John Walker is, so ignoring that bit: Steve is 100% Tiny Angry Troublemaker (speaking as a Tiny Angry Troublemaker). There's a particular kind of "fuck it everyone is bigger than me but imma fight them anyway ง(ಠ‸ಠ)ง" anger that Evans plays very well.

Characterising the effects of the superserum as "a non-removable muscle suit" paralleling Iron Man is a perfect way of thinking about it!

Tony Stark is that he's a "female-coded" character
what.

Sam Wilson and Rhodey are really not interchangeable characters in many many ways
WHAT

"no one needs that many books"
WHY NOT
Me, up to age 9: every book is food if you try hard enough
Me, now: Every book is a reference book if you try hard enough

[princessofgeeks]

I have subscribed to you on the strength of this comment about your relationship with books. Which I share.

[china_shop]

I think people whose characterization of Tony Stark is that he's a "female-coded" character and that Steve and Bucky beating him up at the end of Civil War was a rape

This broke my braaaain. I'm not going to read the original -- I don't have time for that degree of bullshit -- but I appreciated the rebuttal you linked to. And I want to say, on a complete tangent (sorry!), that one of the things I really appreciated about Civil War was how even-handed it seemed to me: it set up the central problem (democratic accountability vs independence/responsibility) in interesting, well-motivated ways, and I don't think anyone "won". CA:TWS will always be my fav, because Saaaam, but I respected Civil War for its willingness to say, "It's complicated. Maybe there's no right answer here." (IIRC, it was pretty even-handed with the shipping subtext, too.)

[minoanmiss]

That's one of the things that drove me nuts about the fannish response -- the movie said "it's complicated" and then half the fandom said to the other half "we are right and morally DEcent and correct people, IRL, because of the side we support, and if you support the other side you are an IRL fascist and a supporter of bullying and rape and you should GTFO."

but I am a bit bitter.

[annonynous.livejournal.com]

"People who own books are elitist and bourgeois and racist for doing so and you don't have to listen to them, you can freely despise them. Your ignorance is equal to their knowledge."

I'm not at all into the fandom(s) discussed above, so this is about my book (and, necessarily, bookcase) ownership. I walked around my house and counted the number of bookcases of various sizes in it. There are well over twenty, including three free-standing five-shelf cinderblock and board bookcases. Ms Kondo might well be horrified.

Ann O., resisting urge to go count the number of BOOKS on them.

[minoanmiss]

I remember your house even though it's been a long time since I was there. :)

That's the thing -- I doubt she personally would be horrified but so many people use her as a bludgeon against bibliophiles I can't think of her without thinking of all the people who vociferously disapprove of book ownership at all.

[lb_lee]

Thanks for explaining Captain America's appeal, which I haven't ever really grokked. (I still don't, but at least I understand why YOU like him!)

Also, if I want a "female-coded" character... I'll read an actual female, just saying. Also I just want all the "this is like a RAPE" thing for things that aren't actually rape to just... go away.

And I really hate that flanderization of Kondo since she LITERALLY SAYS in her GODDAMNED BOOK that you should own AS MANY THINGS AS YOU WANT, and minimalism ISN'T ACTUALLY WHAT SHE VOUCHES! She literally uses as her example, "if owning a bunch of shoes make you happy, own those shoes! The point isn't whether you use them, the point is that they make you happy!" I don't know where her random, extremely short anecdote, "I realized books weren't my jam, so I didn't keep them," became this huge absurd THING that people have apparently hinged a whole philosophy on, when it isn't even what she's about! It's like the equivalent of people who fixate on a one-line Bible verse and ignore EVERYTHING ELSE.

And I feel weird and complicated about the stuff thing, because I guess I am a minimalist... because I keep becoming homeless, and I can't afford storage, and part of my abusers' game was using money and possessions to bind me. ("Now now, you wouldn't want to LIVE IN AN ALLEY with nothing, now would you?") So having too many possessions MAKES ME AFRAID, because they become huge liabilities when the housing falls apart, and something someone could hold hostage. It took me YEARS to reach a point where I allowed myself furniture of quality that I actually liked, because part of me was terrified that if I did, I'd just have to part with it when I became homeless again. Better to live with cheap broken crap that I didn't care about, because then I wouldn't care when I inevitably lost it. (And even now, I have to pick furniture that I know will survive a stay in an uninsulated attic when I have to stockpile them with a friend a while.)

And I feel that my story isn't one allowed in this dichotomy where minimalism is the rich people's shit, or, alternately, "the pristine perfect way of being in the world," when for me it is a thing that mixes weirdly with my own personal damage and poverty, but a DIFFERENT kind of poverty than a lot of other people have.

Like, yes, I have gotten rid of a lot of my books... because they weren't making me happy. Your books clearly make you happy, so obviously you should keep them! My possessions, if they get too much, actively upset and freak me out, so they have to go. That's all there is to it.

[minoanmiss]

Heh, yeah. I often think that Steve Rogers' fandom really loves skinny!Steve, the "little guy". No one is required to love him but I want people to at least know who he is, and who he's not (i.e., not a bully or a fascist or a rapist, ffs), especially when they are primed to accuse real people of awful crimes based on liking this fictional character.

And I feel that my story isn't one allowed in this dichotomy where minimalism is the rich people's shit, or, alternately, "the pristine perfect way of being in the world," when for me it is a thing that mixes weirdly with my own personal damage and poverty, but a DIFFERENT kind of poverty than a lot of other people have.

This makes a lot of sense (everything you've said in your comment makes a lot of sense, and thank you for telling me this). It's the One Size Fits All approach I hate, not least because OSFA or a dichotomy both leave out so many people, as you point out.

And yeah, I'm trying to talk about this on the individual level, which is one of the reasons what you've said to me here is so valuable. I just ... resent the whole "You don't want to get rid of half your stuff because you want to promote discrimination against Asian people" catch-22 some people insist on making out of this.

[kore]

Yes, yes and yes! Especially the Siberia scene. It read to me like the MCU super hero verison of brutal domestic and sexual violence. It is partially hidden by Tony Stark being male, but if you substitute Iron Man with an Iron Maiden in your head - well, I did and nearly had to throw up. Cap, at the end is brutally dominating and yes, penetrating Tony’s defenses by destroying the representation of his heart and by taking the power of the suit away, his agency. Rogers made him vulnerable and then left him behind, helpless

....Lordy.

[kore]

Also, that rebuttal is 100% on the money that he can't be CODED as female or a POC, because those EXIST in the MCU. I dunno where this idea that "so-and-so has characteristics I associate with femininty, therefore he is 'coded female'" came from, but it's really stupid and, like that person said, smacks more of wanting to make Tony more sympathetic and likable than anything else. (More like....a guy who would lie down on a grenade? Or two actual people who were brainwashed and used as weapons and then spent the rest of their lives trying to help fix that? Just saying.)