another rant I'm going to write one of these days

[minoanmiss]

Just once I would like to see an essay about 'cancel culture' that doesn't end up devolving into 'and so marginalized people should not have opinions in public.' I get so tired of seeing 'cancelling' portrayed as An Evil Activity Of The Left when it seems to me that people on the Right are on average a bit more hardcore about cancelling those they disagree with -- just as the formerly 'Dixie' Chicks, or Medgar Evers. It's kind of irritating to see someone whine about how "I used the wrong word and a leftist online called me a racist and so cancel culture is wrong" right after reading about the regime of armed guards Dr. Fauci lives under and the death threats being sent to election officials, accusing them of covering up fraud. I don't think most of those threats are being sent by people who'd call themselves left leaning.

Comments

[anna_wing]

I don't participate in social media except here on Dreamwidth, and certainly have nothing to do with the US' internal domestic factions, but the 'cancel culture' I have seen online in recent years has mostly been members of the 'progressive' left attacking their own for assorted ideological offences and/or thoughtcrimes. This is nothing new in the old left either (see People's Front of Judea) and long predates the internet.

[minoanmiss]

That definitely is a problem, and the Left et al really need to work on our tendency to circular firing squads, but there are also SO MANY cases where conservatives drive people off the internet and threaten them IRL (a good example is what they did to Anita Sarkeesian and so many other women). ANd in my experience the conservatives tend to be more violent. So I don't think 'cancel culture' is some uniquely liberal problem at all.

[anna_wing]

Oh, I see what you mean.

Generally, I don't come across American radical nationalists (US-style 'conservatives') , on-line because I don't look at arguments about US domestic issues, which is probably where they can be found more.

[sabotabby]

Nuance and perspective would be great, wouldn't it? Like, I'd like to have a discussion about how we can repair relationships rather than cancel people 5ever but every time I see one of these arguments it's basically, "I don't want to stop saying racist shit, boo, woe is me I am so oppressed." Ugh.

I did like the tweet about how people who supposedly go right-wing because they got into a fight with leftists are just wimps because leftists get into fights with other leftists all the time. They phrased it better but anyway it's true.

[minoanmiss]

Yes EXACTLY! JKR carrying on about how people disagree with her transphobia is not an example of her rights being violated.

" I did like the tweet about how people who supposedly go right-wing because they got into a fight with leftists are just wimps because leftists get into fights with other leftists all the time."

OMG that one is hilarious.

[amaebi]

Every accusation a confession, from those quarters.

[minoanmiss]

The frustrating thing for me is that I see this accusation from 1) people who got called on bigotry and 2) earnest liberals who seem to think our biggest problem is disagreeing with each other so if Certain Groups would shut up we could all reach consensus.

[amaebi]

Oh, yes. Totally agreed.

Purity cultures are horrendously destructive with little counterbalancing virtue that I can perceive.

Compromise cultures sound nice until you think about it, and prioritizing compromise above matter has been a terrible thing. :(

[lemonsharks]

There's a thread I'd like to pull on here. Cancel culture as it exists now comes in large part from the pervasive all or nothing Calvinism in everything American culture touches + privileged (pick an axis) people feeling powerless against Their Beloved Conservatives (Racist Uncle Craigory is Just Like That/keep the peace and don't ruin Christmas by pointing it out).

Too many confounding variables and not enough time for me to research properly, but it's a thought.

[minoanmiss]

Oh, I definitely think you have a point here. And we could Discuss that if people didn't turn the discussion into Why Liberals Are Once Again The Worst ESPECIALLY People With Marginalized Identities.

[brooksmoses]

Yeah.

And ... look at all the stuff that's going on in the parts of the Republican party/base that seem to be turning into a "not Trump enough" purity culture. If one isn't invested in coming to a conclusion that reflects one's feelings of belonging to the ideologically superior group [1] regardless of facts, it seems like there's quite a lot of commonality across the spectrum here.

[1] Or, in some cases, ideologically-inferior one; there's also plenty of the self-abasement branch of purity culture out there too.

[minoanmiss]

How did this sensible comment end up 1) screened and 2) not agreeed with? Sheesh, Minoanmiss

[princessofgeeks]

Yup.

[minoanmiss]

Whee.

*hugs you*

[dragonlady7]

THIS

[minoanmiss]

Ugh it is SO frustrating!

[swingandswirl]

/pets/ I am starting to see some push back, at least? Of people pointing out that the only people actively trying to shut down dissenting opinions (and being butthurt when said efforts fail) are on the right.

[minoanmiss]

Word. (rereading my journal, and occasionally commenting. :)

[cellio]

The far left seems prone to cancel culture, where if you are not 100% with them and you come to their notice, they will look for something you said that they don't like, misinterpret it in the worst possible way, lie on top of that, and try to ruin your reputation. I have seen this up close. They seek to suppress what they don't like.

The far right seems prone to use violence to threaten, attack, and sometimes kill those who have some trait they don't like, ranging from being the wrong color to being a minority and having the nerve to speak up for yourself -- or others. I have seen this up close. They seek to suppress what they don't like.

The violence and vitriol that comes from the far right is way more scary to me, but the crusading that comes from the far left concerns me too. Plus, as noted by others, they have a bad habit of alienating their own or allies, which is just stupid.

This is not an equivalency argument, perish the thought. It's just...complicated, and most cases require more thought and nuance than people on social media or looking for soundbites can tolerate, and that makes things worse. Cancel culture is real and IMO damaging; that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be held accountable for the crap they say and its consequences. The key, I think, is to hold people accountable for what they say and do, not what people looking for targets want to believe they say and do. Being a bigot has legitimate consequences; being falsely accused of being a bigot, on the other hand, has troubling consequences.

I don't know if this makes sens. I don't know if I should click "post" or abort. I, like you, want to have thoughtful conversations with real people in all their complicated glory, and I realize that we don't always have the spoons for that, and I hope I'm not guessing wrong.

[minoanmiss]

" The far left seems prone to cancel culture, where if you are not 100% with them and you come to their notice, they will look for something you said that they don't like, misinterpret it in the worst possible way, lie on top of that, and try to ruin your reputation. I have seen this up close. They seek to suppress what they don't like."

You're absolutely right, and I know you learned this the hard way. What frustrates me is that the conclusion to all these essays is always some version of "so if this group or that group would stop publicly disagreeing with people we wouldn't have cancel culture" instead of actually discussing the mechanisms of cancel culture, its reasons*, and how to go forward into progress, not backwards into silence.

I'm actually really glad you offered your perspective here, not least because your few paragrAphs are already much more nuanced than many an essay I've read.

*: I personally think one of the reasons for cancel culture is a dire overreaction to being silenced. After decades of "you can't disagree with Racist Uncle Howard" a lot of people enjoy being able to say "X said Y but I get to disagree with Y and never talk to X again!" and then they take it wayyyyyy too far.

[cellio]

Smacks forehead.

I failed to circle back to the actual point you were making.

What frustrates me is that the conclusion to all these essays is always some version of "so if this group or that group would stop publicly disagreeing with people we wouldn't have cancel culture" instead of actually discussing the mechanisms of cancel culture, its reasons*, and how to go forward into progress, not backwards into silence.

I completely agree with this. A lot of that stuff feels like victim-blaming and the rest feels like holier-than-thou "stop whining" from those who've never been targets.

I don't actually read very many of those essays, at least past the first couple paragraphs, because they seem to be very absolutist (on either side) when what we often need is thoughtful consideration of nuances. Which isn't to defend racist Uncle Howerd, of course.

We are in danger of losing the ability to disagree and to counter positions we don't like with arguments for our own. If I get to silence those I don't like, then it's only a matter of time before the wheel turns and I'm the one being silenced. So I'd rather show the rest of the family racist Uncle Howard's true stripes, not drive him out of the family. Especially if there's a chance he's redeemable. (When I was a child, I remember one of my grandparents saying some things that I now know were quite racist. 5-year-old me didn't know, having never heard some of those words before, but 5-year-old me did notice my father correct that grandparent while also teaching me a lesson about people not like us, and that has stuck with me to this day. That was the last time I heard such things from that source. Do I think my father turned that person around? No, not in one conversation -- but he stopped it from infecting us, and I got to grow up without any grandparents being driven out.)