Patterns in Harassment

[minoanmiss]

People being wrong on the Internet

I fucking hate HTML.

https://www.askamanager.org/2025/06/is-it-rude-to-study-during-lunch-how-to-ask-hr-for-additional-support-and-more.html

One of the questions asked on Ask a Manager today has to do with harassment so of course there was a thread about "how can a poor ignorant man know how he offended his coworker unless he demands she lay out everything he said word for word so he can relitigate it in point by point detail until he proves her wrong?" (Of course that's not what Wembem* and Wayward Sun* said but that's what that question means in practice. They did get the "omg does he have to STOP SPEAKING TO WOMEN ALTOGETHER" old chestnut in there nearly verbatim though.)

I hate those. I hate that people insist on giving the Alistairs of the world "the benefit of the doubt". I used to think that they didn't know that meant NOT giving the victims of harassment the benefit of the doubt but by now I'm pretty sure they do know that. And I think, when Alistairs are presumed to be male and their victims female, this interpretation is linked to the cultural idea of women as mendacious.

I also hate the assumption that harassing comments are these ambiguous multi-interpretable things. In my experience of my and other people's experiences the harassing comments are pretty damn obvious. "What a nice sweater" is appropriate to say to a coworker (but please don't waggle your eyebrows) "Your tits look great in that sweater" is not.

Argh.

I'm not positing this one to agonyaunt because there's a poster whom I know WILL defend Alistair and I have the potential right now to waste a lot of time and energy arguing with them.

Comments

[sovay]

Argh.

Stepping aside from the steaming pile of comments, I thought it was nice that the letter writer's skip-level manager was immediately in their corner.

[lunabee34]

That commentariat always seems to live in a different reality than the rest of us anyway. According to them, nobody should ever have to show up to work on time, work in person, complete their work accurately, or speak to their coworkers. LOL

[princessofgeeks]

HUGS

[conuly]

They did get the "omg does he have to STOP SPEAKING TO WOMEN ALTOGETHER" old chestnut in there nearly verbatim though

I've got a poem for you

[full_metal_ox]

P.S. That old high-school football buddy you were going to touch bases with (and commiserate about the unreasonableness of women, amirite?)

You can’t talk to Roberta, now, either.

[minoanmiss]

woot woot! Thank you for both of these! I love that poem.

[full_metal_ox]

It was ursulav who wrote the poem and conuly who linked it here.

[pameladean]

Honestly, if they can't do the basic work of learning how to treat women like fellow human beings, then YES, LET THEM STOP SPEAKING TO US ALTOGETHER. It would be a relief.

P.

[flamingsword]

👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻

[acelightning2]

If someone says or does something a (generic woman) feels offended by, why should she beg him to repeat the offense in detail? And if it isn't enough to tell someone that (he) has offended or upset you, if they demand to know why an innocent little compliment is offensive, I think it stands to reason that their asking you that is likewise offensive.

And that sets up the situation where some folks believe that "all women are offense kleptomaniacs" and "why are you so damn SENSITIVE?"

Just stop and think what your mother would do if someone said or did the thing to HER?

[full_metal_ox]

Just stop and think what your mother would do if someone said or did the thing to HER?

That optically assumes that these guys regard their mothers as more than Sammich Providers.

[acelightning2]

Yeah.... one of the underlying factors in the "women's lib" movement was "Do respect the women of the world - remember you all had mothers!"
https://youtu.be/F2U1OUxXSMM?si=7Jj_Qy4kpxN_BRgz

[full_metal_ox]

Ugh—I meant “optimistically.”

[acelightning2]

At least it gave me an excuse to use a Pointer Sisters video :-)

[full_metal_ox]

I recall somebody’s account of a formidable teaching nun who’d take the matter even further up the chain of command: “WOULD YOU DO THAT TO THE VIRGIN MARY?”

[acelightning2]

I love that! And as a Pagan, I would say, "Would you say that to Athena, or Kali?"

[ororo]

I think I bailed on that particular letter.

If a man thinks, "Well, I just can't talk to women anymore without offending them," he needs to understand that this is his fault, not any woman's, and he needs to educate himself.

Your example is perfect, IMO.

Way too many men think any woman's body and time and emotional resources is theirs by default. They may not think this consciously, but the culture is there.

with more and more women coming out of the socialization that no, we don't have to be people-pleasers, or be the ones to soothe ruffled feathers, these men are unsure of their place in teh world and therefore hold on to what used to be called, "boys will be boys," or "oh ignore him, he's just like that."

People exhaust me sometimes. Especially that commentariat.

[acelightning2]

As the mother of a son, I chose to raise him so he couldn't use "boys will be boys" as a cop-out. And it's utterly inaccurate to use that phrase when talking about adult men behaving like horny high-school kids.

[hammercock]

I think that anyone who seriously asks "OMG do I have to STOP SPEAKING TO WOMEN ALTOGETHER???" should be told yes, as they clearly can't be trusted to speak to women. :-D

[minoanmiss]

You know, I think you're right.