Counter to a Retort

[minoanmiss]

I have never been able to counter this particular argument all my life (probably because I'm an only child) and it is more annoying than ever to see it on a national scale. Content advisory: obnoxious political cartoon, obnocxious concept writ large.



I don't know why I look at political cartoons. It feels like 4/5 are conservative, mendacious, and meanspirited. For instance, take this one.

I've seen people say, "Democrats need to tell Americans what the Republicans are doing!" but the Republicans have already set up a counter to that. "It's not that we're doing anything wrong but that Democrats are calling us mean names to be mean," they say.

I remember this argument more personally througout my life. As a girl once I hit puberty every boy's retort to any anger on my part was, "What, do you have PMS?" Before and interspersed with that I was just being Violent due to being Black. I've seen this thrown at so many other people, along with the "I don't care about this, therefore I'm dispassionate and correct; this issue actually affects you, so you're irrationally invested and therefore wrong" argument often deployed from places of privilege. And I still remember trying to explain an issue to an ex of mine where we had this exchange:

Ex: you said that to be mean
Me: no I said it because it's true

Unfortunately I had not yet realized that this particular person was a practically perfect paragon of humanity in contrast to my almost constant wrongitude, but anyway.

I don't think I'm wrong on this observation, though.

So how do we counter it?

Comments

[dewline]

"It's not that we're doing anything wrong but that Democrats are calling us mean names to be mean." translates in my brain as "The Democrats are calling us on our crap, and we HAVE TO PUNISH THEM FOR THAT!"

[rydra_wong]

... what is "A ROOM WITH THE VIEW" (bottom left corner) even supposed to mean?

Google only produces a) typos for Merchant Ivory film "A Room with a View", and b) an expensive book of photographs by an air cabin crew member.

[minoanmiss]

I think it's a reference to "the View", a TV show where a handful of women comment on society. It currently features Whoopi Goldberg who has a lot to say about the current US admin, none of it good. Plus, it's centered around women having any opinions whatsoever, which conservatives wouuld hate a priori.

[rydra_wong]

Thank you for making that somewhat less baffling!

[dissectionist]

LMAO, they’re considering DeSantis a liberal now? He’s the one who used “listless vessel”.

[princessofgeeks]

By calling it out in the moment. To that cartoon one can say, "Wow, you don't know any liberals personally at all, do you."

But only when one feels brave and strong.

I don't think countering stuff like this online does any good at all.

But you do you, as always!

My ex believes all this horrid stuff when it suits him. I don't engage with him any more at all on these topics. I watched him go down the alt-right rat hole before my very eyes and could do nothing to counter it. I finally quit arguing with him.

[acelightning73]

We are just reporting the behavior we're observing. Since that behavior is destructive, pointing it out to you sounds like vicious name-calling to you. You fascists, you ignorant bigots, you oppressors, you hatemongers! You can't stand to hear the truth about what you're doing. And we the victims of your hate, aren't just calling you out on your behavior because it affects us and we're getting pissy about it, and we victims should just suck up and deal because we deserve your mistreatment (women and other oppressed minorities must be punished for not being perfect superior white straight males, who are the only people who have a right to exist.). We are being harmed by you, and we want you to STOP and look at what we're " whining and complaining" about.

If a person gets injured and starts bleeding all over the place, they're not bleeding because they want to piss you off.

[asakiyume]

I don't quite get the cartoon. Like, I get that these are things that conservatives associate with progressives (and a lot are things are that progressives associate with themselves--like, I'm fine with "no human is illegal" and "resist"). And now they're on conversation hearts because--? You could do the exact same cartoon in reverse (put bunches of conservative rallying cries on conversation hearts), and I wouldn't get that either. Like... is the point that progressives don't have nice Valentine's-y things to say to conservatives? Because, duh! And same in reverse! Show me the warm loving messages conservatives have for trans kids, working women, immigrants, special-needs people, etc.!

[teenybuffalo]

Yeah, the cartoon for me is very much a case of "you say that like it's a bad thing..." As far as I can tell, the cartoonist is doing the visual equivalent of repeating reasonable statements in a whiny tone of voice in an attempt to discredit them. I don't know. This is already way too much time trying to put myself into the shoes of someone who thinks that cartoon is saying anything worthwhile.

[asakiyume]

I brought it up to Wakanomori, and he thought it was something along the lines of the schoolyard "Oh if you love this slogan so much, why don't you MARRY IT!!" taunt. Which ... that's a headscratcher too!

But yeah, gotta stop spending more time on it than it merits.

[sovay]

I brought it up to Wakanomori, and he thought it was something along the lines of the schoolyard "Oh if you love this slogan so much, why don't you MARRY IT!!" taunt. Which ... that's a headscratcher too!

None of this behavior made sense to me when it was enacted by school bullies and now that it's enacted by national bullies it is still from some inexplicable dimension and in every case I resent having to deal with it. No, I do not want to be the bigger person and graciously ignore your escalating attempts to make my life difficult, I want your bizarrely intense hostility toward my desire to sit quietly reading a book by myself to cause you to spontaneously combust.

[asakiyume]

Hear hear!

[full_metal_ox]

None of this behavior made sense to me when it was enacted by school bullies and now that it's enacted by national bullies it is still from some inexplicable dimension and in every case I resent having to deal with it.



(Image description: a four-panel Calvin and Hobbes strip; Calvin, a spiky-haired small boy, is swinging on the playground swingset as Moe, the much larger school bully, approaches.

Panel 1: Moe: “Off the swing, Twinky.”

Panel 2: Calvin: “Forget it, Moe. I just got on. You have to wait your turn like everyone else.”

Panel 3: Moe (preparing to deliver a punch as he grabs Calvin’s shirt and drags him off the swing): “I said, OFF.”

Panel 4: Calvin (lying sprawled on the ground, covered in grime and bruises, his clothing tattered, at least one shoe knocked off, and surrounded by dust clouds and orbiting stars and planets): “I keep forgetting that rules are only for little nice people.”

[teenybuffalo]

In my head I am roaring "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" and chasing the cartoonist down the street with a stick. (But only in my head because I don't want to get arrested/escalate/allow the cartoonist to feel like a wounded little martyr.)

I struggle with this train of thought too. The only thing that helps me is trying to disregard emotional states as far as I can. I often have to remind myself that if the other guy chooses to think I am a meany mean meanpants, that is not necessarily true. It gets harder to deal with that when the other guy is a family member or someone I'm closely stuck with seeing a lot of.

[lynnenne]

“You can’t handle the truth” sounds like an excellent response. Pretty much all of those “slogans” are just true statements.

[contrarywise]

It looks to me like a mixture of ideas that conservatives find offensive/alarming, straight-up projection, and ideas to ridicule in public in order to undermine any legitimacy around them, all packaged up in a commercial holiday-themed visual anti-liberal straw-man.

I do think political cartoons can be a medium for speaking truth to power and swaying public opinion, but more often it's a hot take propaganda medium in service to those in power and influence. Such is the double-edged nature of public discourse.

[ororo]

I like political cartoons from the liberal POV, but I sometimes have to go out of my way to find them.

Some people you just can't talk to. I remember asking an ex of mine, "How do I tell you I'm upset without you feeling attacked?"

The answer? "I don't know."

Women's anger, especially black women's anger gets dismissed by way too many people. I don't know how to counter it. If I address things calmly, they get disregarded. If I get angry when behavior doesn't change after I address it calmly, then it's my fault for getting angry, and I am disregarded as a human being.

[lokifan]

the "I don't care about this, therefore I'm dispassionate and correct; this issue actually affects you, so you're irrationally invested and therefore wrong" argument often deployed from places of privilege

For real!

I think countering it as in persuading people probably goes back to the whole 'well, I'm vaxxed because I want to protect my community. I know you want to protect your family and your community...' leaning-into-shared-values thing. But I'm also a big believer that getting people who already basically agree with these ideas involved in the fight is a better use of time than trying to persuade people who'd like this cartoon.