Two Christianities

[minoanmiss]

In the US. There are quite a few different Christian denominations in the US. But it seems to me that, politically, the people supporting Bishop Marian Budde's speaking truth to Trump's power and those condemining her (including Republican statements that she should be deported despite being a US Citizen) are following rather different kinds of Christianity.

Comments

[acelightning73]

How did people who want to call themselves "Christian" come to reject all of Jesus' teachings and focus on conquest, repression, and intolerance?

[dissectionist]

Admittedly I wasn’t raised Christian, but my understanding is that they believe Jesus is part of God (the Trinity thing). There’s plenty of support in the Bible for God being vengeful, cruel, intolerant, supportive of conquest and repression, etc.

To me it’s like people who love an abuser. Some people are drawn to the abusive side. Some people are drawn to the better side that the abuser projects in public or after an abusive episode. Both sides exist and both can attract people.

[acelightning73]

The God in most of the Old Testament is almost a textbook narcissist. He demands constant and profuse adoration, and if you aren't adoring enough, he'll smite you. He orders you to perform strange little rituals that don't do very much, but without them you'll get smote. And all this just to stoke up his poor little ego.

A God who behaves like that is nothing like God-The-Loving-Father, to whom humanity is a flock of occasionally wayward sheep. And the closest Jesus got to being vengeful was when he cursed the fig tree. They're all from what appears to be the same mythos, but with no agreement.

[lynnenne]

Pretty sure Trump is modeling himself on the Old Testament god.

[acelightning73]

Especially the smiting part.

[dissectionist]

Exactly. Because both of those exist within the Bible, I think both the god-fearing (the ones who are drawn to the cruelty) and the god-loving (the ones who are drawn to the Jesus incarnation) are being logically consistent. It’s just that they’re focusing on different parts of the source text.

It’s like with the anti-choice fucks who commit acts of terror against abortion clinics. I hate that they exist, but I think they’re also the only true believers in the anti-choice cause. Because if you genuinely believe that dozens of children are being massacred in that building today, and dozens more will be slaughtered tomorrow, and on and on, what the fuck are you doing just praying outside? If you truly, to your core, believed every one of those were real children, you’d be throwing bombs or shooting doctors or chaining the doors or doing whatever you could to stop the ongoing mass murders.

So like, I wish anti-choice fucks and god-fearing fucks just weren’t a thing, because they make the world so much worse for everyone. But I do grudgingly acknowledge that at least they’re being logically consistent.

[acelightning73]

I believe that in that abortion clinic dozens of women are relieved of the health burden of an unplanned pregnancy, with a medical solution that leaves them able to bear more children when they're ready, and also gives them the ability to pursue their education or career planes without interruption.

And bombing an abortion clinic harms more people than the clinic itself does.

And some people only understand force. They want a God who smites everyone who doesn't display instant and perfect obedience. They live in fear of being smote for wearing the wrong clothes, or not going through complicated rituals about the food they eat, or for not praying with enough vehemence. And they want the vicarious thrill of knowing that anybody who disagrees with them is going to get smote if they wait long enough. A kind and loving Deity isn't as exciting as one who likes to smite. Do people prefer to watch children playing with puppies on TV, or sportsball's mock wars where overly muscled young men pound each other unconsious in the mud?

[dissectionist]

I mean, you can choose to believe that about abortion clinics, but it doesn’t actually require belief; everything you stated there about abortion clinics are facts. We don’t have to choose to believe in the sun for it to be a fact that it exists, it casts light, etc. The only thing that requires belief is to refuse to accept facts.

Sorry I wasn’t clear - I was using a general “you” in my previous comment above, not a you as in “you, personally, acelightning73”. :) I didn’t assume you personally were anti-choice. I should have written something like “if someone truly believes” or what-have-you instead.

[acelightning73]

As a sexually active young adult, I was indescribably relieved when abortions became legal and safe. I had a few friends who had back-alley abortions and suffered horrible complications afterwards. And the chemically induced form is far less damaging than surgical abortion. (One person I know who took the "morning after" pill said it was like the worst period you could imagine. Unpleasant, but bearable if necessary.

The modern movement to make abortion and contraceptives easily accessible started where I went to college, and a pharmaceutical rep was tired of girls asking him how they could end an unwanted pregnancy. He wasn't a doctor, but he knew plenty of doctors, but he didn't just direct women to a doctor who was willing to risk his license for performing illegal abortions. So he found a way to make it acceptable to lawmakers, and then all women could get the Pill or a diaphragm or an IUD legally and under standard medical conditions, and nobody worried about pregnancy any more. I started with the Pill, which made me somewhat unwell, and later I got an IUD, and then had it removed and conceived and gave birth to a child who is now a clinical psychologist in New York City.

[lunabee34]

Amen.

[katarik]

I am sitting on my hands to not go to the folks who attend my church, which is Episcopalian as is the Right Rev. Marian, who I would bet money voted for those awful men, and ask them if they stand with Bishop Marian (which the official stance of the Episcopal Church is that we in fact do, because she was doing her job properly and in line with official doctrine: the baptismal covenant includes an oath to protect the dignity of every human being).

[kayre]

It might be interesting to ask them how they feel about Trump and others calling Bishop Budde a "so-called bishop" or putting bishop in quotes. Are they okay with him challenging their legitimately chosen bishop?

[lynnenne]

I was raised Catholic, and Christ’s teachings as I was taught them bear zero resemblance to these zealots. Christ said to beware false prophets, and Trump is the falsest of them all.

[hammercock]

Fake Christians like Mike Johnson hate being shown up by real Christians like Bishop Budde.

[cmcmck]

'Quakers believe that everyone is equal – each of us is "a child of God". This leads us to challenge inequality and work with people who suffer as a result of it. We oppose all forms of discrimination and champion diversity. Early Quakers recognised the equal spiritual authority of women.'

[acelightning73]

Amen, Praise the Lord, and So Mote It Be! An awful lot of Quakers wind up becoming either Pagan or Buddhist, in order to pursue a life of lovingkindness and peace. I've never met a Quaker I didn't like.