More on citizenship revocation

[minoanmiss]

https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/4992787-trump-deportation-plan-immigration/

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/immigration-law/can-us-citizenship-be-revoked/

So in order to apply for a Jamaican passport I would need my parents' help, as I would need proof 1) of their former Jamaican citizenship 2) that they produced me.

Do I want to talk to them about this?

[background: my parents immigrated legally from Jamaica, had me, became citizens when I was 11]

1) I'm a bit worried about them being stripped of their US citizenship, but not that much. They have almost as many people in Jamaica to take care of them as they do in the US. I'm mostly worried about their losing all the nickels they've stacked and about their being treated roughly by ICE goons.

1a) I am not nearly as close to our Jamaican family and friends as they are, and no one in Jamaica is medically qualified to maintain my scleral lenses. I am currently veering between packing a go bag and laughing at myself for it.

2) This is political. I try not to discuss politics with my parents. I do NOT want to hear "if the Democrats would stop supporting transgender people they'd win" or "if the Democrats would stop supporting abortion they'd win" from my parents. I don't want to choose between biting through my tongue and arguing with them.

3) I hate hate hate wondering if I'll be in the US in four years. I've spent my life here. This fucking country is most of what I know.

Comments

[dine]

no idea how you'd get proof of their former Jamaican citizenship, but your birth certificate should suffice for the "they had me" part. and it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a copy of that anyway - I did some years back (haven't needed it, but I have it)

[rydra_wong]

Okay, just to check my understanding: to get a Jamaican passport you need to have citizenship, and you'd be eligible for Jamaican citizenship (if you don't already hold it) because your parents were Jamaican citizens at the time of your birth? And holding US citizenship and another citizenship at the same time isn't a problem?

[bikergeek]

And holding US citizenship and another citizenship at the same time isn't a problem?

Typically it's not unless you hold some kinds of federal employment, need a security clearance, or are in the armed forces.

[lokifan]

I think it depends on whether your having citizenship would be enough of a de-stressor that it'd be worth it.

Another thing to consider - in the UK, anyway, laws are usually designed to stop someone being made stateless. Even if people do get stripped of their citizenship, it seems very possible to me that it would be much harder to do legally if it left you stateless, so maybe a better strategy is to NOT apply. But this isn't me giving advice about it, more me suggesting it's something to look into or ask someone about, cos I know 0 about US immigration law!

[rydra_wong]

Yeah, as of a few years ago the UK essentially has a two-tier system because of this, where you can be stripped of your British citizenship if you have or are eligible for citizenship of another country and so will not be left stateless.

For obvious reasons, this applies very disproportionately to immigrants and children and grandchildren of immigrants.

See the Shamina Begum case: she could be stripped of her British citizenship because she would be entitled to apply for citizenship of Bangladesh (as her parents had emigrated from there), even though Bangladesh made it very clear they didn't want her and wouldn't allow her to enter the country.

Nobody's yet really tested or found out whether this applies to Jews and demi-Jews: for example, I have enough Jewish ancestry that I'd be legally entitled to emigrate to Israel and apply for citizenship (something which I have zero desire to do), so arguably that means I also have the second-tier British citizenship which can be revoked.

OTOH: if Trump manages to bludgeon through the constitutional amendment he'd need to get rid of birthright citizenship, I really doubt he'd give a shit about international law saying you can't make people stateless either, so whether someone has citizenship elsewhere or not may be largely irrelevant.

[bikergeek]

He wouldn't need a constitutional amendment, he'd just need SCOTUS to reverse U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark. Which they will, if he asks them to. 6-3.

[lokifan]

Oh shit.

[minoanmiss]

I seriously need to talk to a lawyer about this next Spring.

[bikergeek]

Since when has TFG ever given two shits about the law?

[lokifan]

Never, but I was thinking of courts striking it down.

[cmcmck]

I suspect with your Jamaica connections you'd might well also be entitled to a UK passport so that's worth checking out as well.

[rydra_wong]

Nope -- as I understand it, assuming minoanmiss's parents were born in Jamaica before 1962, they would have had status as "Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies", and would have been entitled to immigrate to the UK then, but assuming they didn't do that, they lost that citizenship and became citizens of Jamaica on independence.

UK immigration law's been getting tighter and tighter and tighter from the '60s on.

[cmcmck]

True enough and you only have to watch the screaming reaction to 'boat people' to realise why. :o(

[goss]

This must be unbelievably stressful for you, and probably millions of Americans in the same boat right now. :(

IMO it might be best to just sit tight and do nothing. In my limited experience, the less you put yourself or your parents in the radar, the better, for now.

As for needing a Jamaican passport, if Jamaica immigration works anything like Trinidad, don't worry about it. As long as there's a record that you resided or your parents were born there, it shouldn't be a problem for you to be welcomed back.

(BTW, US immigration tend to not be fans of people holding dual citizenship - from what I recall, in order to obtain US citizenship in the '90s, you were required to give up citizenship status in your country of birth. Even in Canada where holding dual citizenship is completely acceptable, they don't like travelers having 2 different country passports on their person.)

[lunabee34]

I'm so sorry this is something you even have to think about.

[princessofgeeks]

I too am sorry this is something you have to think about.

In this country you can get hold of birth certificates; I believe in most states they are public records. Could you get hold of your parents' Jamaican birth certificates without having to ask them?

I agree that putting off talking to them as long as possible is a good idea.

[conuly]

Pack the bag, renew your passport, get all your documents in a row. You may need a bag anyway if there's a natural disaster or if your bestie decides you must attend her destination wedding, so why not pack it now?

[corvidology]

You were born in the US before your parents even became citizens, right? So you have a US birth certificate *and* your parents were legal residents at the time even if they didn't become citizens until you were 11.

You are an American citizen, not a 'naturalized' citizen. In other words, while it's vaguely conceivable your parents might face these problems, you would not.

They're essentially bumbling along about (potentially) de-naturalizing naturalized citizens... there's a mouthful.

ETA: If you don't have a passport and can afford the stupid fee, go ahead and get one. It will be based on your US birth certificate and will be yet more proof that you're a US citizen.

[bikergeek]

They're also talking about taking away "birthright citizenship", i.e. jus soli citizenship that one has by right by being born on American soil. Republican nativists have been talking about doing this for some while, with hateful rhetoric directed at so-called (please excuse the slur) "anchor babies".

MM could be considered such an "anchor baby", since her parents were foreign nationals at the time of her birth.

Birthright citizenship is guaranteed by the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution, which states that "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." This was upheld in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, and all it would take is for SCOTUS to reverse that decision. (Which you can almost guarantee that they will if this comes up, 6-3.)

If they do that, then MM loses her American citizenship and becomes stateless, with no country anywhere where she has the "right of return".

[corvidology]

Obviously you've done more research on the topic. My understanding of this was based on a conversation with one of our law professors, not on my own research. Mea culpa.

I have a green card. It's proved useful in the last month or so in finding out the ugly truth about some people when I've mentioned this and heard 'well, they don't mean people like you.' It's fun, for a certain value of fun, to follow that up with something like 'oh you mean people who can roll their tongue?' and watch them squirm.

[bikergeek]

Yep. My parents were immigrants, from Germany and Switzerland, after WWII. I also trot that out to get the "Well we don't mean you" reaction. (I am whiter than Miracle Whip on Wonder bread.)

[corvidology]

I'm English with heavy doses of Irish, Scots and Welsh blood. On any given day I'm 60% sunscreen by bodyweight as I live in The South (TM).

I'm from London, where over 300 different languages are spoken and actually *gasp* a bunch of us are born with a plastic spork in our mouth. ;D

*runs to fetch trusty bowler hat*

[julian]

BG's probably done his research already, but:

I take it just your birth certificate won't do for the Jamaican authorities?

[flamingsword]

This is so fucked up and I’m sorry that anyone has to expend energy on this bullshit.

But then, I guess that’s the whole point, isn’t it? If you’re not a citizen, then you can’t vote. You can be kept in line through fear. You can be deported or de facto enslaved in a detention center. This monstrosity is very purposeful, in the most fascist way.

[rydra_wong]

So in order to apply for a Jamaican passport I would need my parents' help, as I would need proof 1) of their former Jamaican citizenship 2) that they produced me.

Just as a pragmatic thought: you could start finding out what documents you'd need to provide that proof, before you decide whether/how to approach your parents about it, or planning what to do in the long term.

2) sounds like it'd be covered by your birth certificate, so the question is what's required for 1).

Also, as people have said, if you don't have a US passport, sounds like that might be the first priority; it does provide instant proof of your US citizenship if needed.

[minoanmiss]

Oh yes I am absolutely renewing my passsport.

[hitchhiker]

I'm sorry you have to deal with this :( they really do seem to want their white christian ethnostate any way they can get it. (my hope is they can't actually get it and this is all just noise but who can say.)

[lynnenne]

Fuck, I had no idea this was even a possibility. I'm so sorry you're going through this!!

[rydra_wong]

Further info: looks like the initial attack is going to be via refusing to provide "citizenship-affirming documents" to children with undocumented parents:

https://www.alternet.org/trump-14th-amendment-undocumented/

This will doubtless lead to a legal battle and head towards the Supreme Court. But it suggests that trying to revoke citizenship for people who already have it is at least not on their radar for the immediate future.

ETA: Not that it means it's not a potential issue further down the line if they get the ball rolling (and especially if they stay in power after 2028 or get a Supreme Court win), but it seems like at least you have some time to strategize and prepare.

[minoanmiss]

Thanks :)

They have been talking about "denaturalization" though. I'm not so much worried for 2025 as 2026 if you see what I mean.