A grump about [Tumblr] fandom

[minoanmiss]

A rant.
Content advisory: Tangential discussion of child sexual abuse and direct discussion of the use of accusations thereof as weapons in otherwise unrelated arguments.

So Tumblr fandom has a moral panic going on over pedophilia. It really is a moral panic -- it reminds me of McCarthyism, or the "I've never had an impure thought, HAVE YOU?" attitudes I've seen in fundamentalism. It's not about waves and waves of information on how to empower kids to speak up if they feel unsafe, how to be the kind of adult a kid can turn to for help, how to effectively get a kid protected. and their abuser prevented from abusing them anymore, and so on. That would really be about fighting pedophilia and it would be AWESOME.

No, it's all about policing what people write, draw, etc, with demands that people take down their works from sharing sites, threats to "dox" people (ie, reveal their identities), flames that consist of accusations of "you wrote X so you must be a pedophile IRL" and so on. Its often includes preemptive declarations that anyone who disagrees with one about [character romantic relation]ships is a pedophile and/or pedophilie apologist, etc. It's really exhausting.

(Let me be clear: this is absolutely not about discussions of actual sexually related malfeasance performed online or elsewhere. I'm talking only about the distressingly common practice of using 'pedophilia' as an accusation to levy against someone who made a fan work one disapproves of, concerning fictional characters. In practice, I have not yet seen this accusation levied against a fan work that depicts a sexual relationship involving a prepubescent, but only against fan works and meta discussions concerning characters who are teenagers or young.adults, )

For a recent example, I came across what looked like an interesting essay on average ages of marriage in the Middle Ages, until the author saw fit to add, "The only people who ever bring this non-fact up are paedophiles looking to defend their dangerous paraphilia." And I just rolled my eyes out of my head at this preemptive strike of "disagree with me and I'll call you a pedophile." And, as hinted at here, people who do this enthusiastically conflate sexual desire for prepubescents with any discussion of anyone under the age of 18, or 21, or even 25, having or considering or at all being involved with sex. Which is another reason this is so exhausting -- the collapsing of whole ranges of human ages and behaviors into one off-limits area where Only Evil People Want To Go. Writing a story about two teenagers in love is conflated with a story about exploring the ways that an affair between a teen and an adult is a bad idea, and also a story where an adult having a sexual relationship with a child is presented as a good idea. So many people would condemn all those stories as undeserving of existence and their writers deserving of all possible excoriation, but I think those three stories are very different both thematically and ethically. But if I tried to say so... (more on that in a bit.)

For another example, I saw someone call a mother (among other of this lady's qualities) a pedophile because she was a participant in a discussion of one's memories of one's own adolescent sexuality. He said she wasn't safe for her own kids because he disagreed with her, and others agreed with him. That's kind of horrifying, I think. I really hate seeing a really horrible action used as an all purpose accusation to silence anyone one disagrees with.

I especially find it exhausting because I really don't think it's helping anyone. Well, maybe. Maybe these discussions are first place some people see condemnations of the horrors they were put through in their youth. God knows I've supported some people in badly misguided endeavors because they had told me "X thing you had to deal with was actually wrong" and thus won my loyalty. But I read people's statements that "fiction affects reality" and I wish I could discussed the nuanced, complex ways that happens without them calling me a defender of pedophilia. I read people's statements that warnings and labels on stories are worse than useless and that only erasing all objectionable works from any sharing space will do, public or semipublic, and I remember how much effort it took to get warnings adopted in fandom in the first place and how much good they've done. I read people's flames and excoriations of authors and artists and I know none of these people would ever write a cranky letter to a theater for showing a Woody Allen movie or to Arnie Hammer for starring in "call me by your name" -- it's so much easier to go after a fellow fan writing fan works than after a wealthy famous professional. And I certainly don't get the impression any of them are taking on NAMBLA or working on learning how to be more accessible to victimized kids. But I could be wrong on that point. I hope so.

(I also look at how many fans who are tired of this moral panic then turn around and accuse fans who are trying to discuss racism in fan works of the same kind of moral panic, when the situations and means and motives and goals are very, very different. And I could write so much more about this pattern and its effects, but I'll settle for a mention.)

I do know that I'm not wrong, let alone a pedophile, to have created fanworks that explore some facets of human existence, including sex. I kind of want to write about this on Tumblr, not least to encourage the people I've seen pushing back against this, but I've already had my fill of random comments on some of my stories calling me vicious names. I have no desire to bring myself to the attention of people with the time and inclination to rummage through my stories and condemn me for things I've written that they can twist into 'proof'. "You wrote hobbits having sex! Hobbits are short and children are short so hobbits equal children so you're a pedophile! You wrote about teenagers dating and even having sex! That means you've thought about fictional teenagers in sexual ways! You're a pedophile! You've written about nonconsensual sex! That means you approve of rape and/or are a rapist IRL!" etc. I've seen many other people receive these accusations. I don't need to get them myself.

And I think this gets me because... well, I'm terribly oversensitive to what people say in the first place, to being condemned by people who've never met me. I always expect people to put their principles above other humans, because that was how I was raised. ANd... I have a couple of friends whom I've known for a long time who seem to be well on the other side of this from me, and I keep wondering every time they reblog something along the lines of "creating any sexual fan work about anyone not a full legal adult is encouraging real life child molestation" and I want to ask them if they think I'm really a danger to my little roommates. Not least because I learned long ago that in the end there are no exceptions.

Anyway, this is a rant -- I could say so much more to explain and flesh out everything I've said here. Fandom has had morality wars before and will again. But I wanted to dump out at least some of my frustration with this situation into my journal.

Comments

[lindahoyland]

I remember writing a story about a young bride in a forced marriage and being ultra careful not to mention her age as I was scared at what the reaction might be.

Child abuse is horrible but we must nor rewrite history or stop performing works like Romeo and Juliet. In the past, people married young as life expectancy was very short

[caitri]

*pets*

You make a compelling argument as to why I like to visit Tumblr but couldn't possibly live there.

And I guess, like, this is a topic fandom is condemned to revisit every ten years? Last time it was Harry Potter fic, before that LOTR fic... In retrospect I'm kinda surprised it never came up in Buffy fandom even though the show was careful to couch all sexual activity at 17+...

[tibicina]

Yeah, a) Pedophilia != Ephebophilia. b) Writing /about/ something really doesn't necessarily mean approving of it. c) writing a teenager in a relationship with another teenager is completely reasonable.

All of which is to say - GAH. Nuance people, nuance.

[vass]

Quick request: can you please say what the trigger warning is for outside of the cut? For example, in this case, "tangential discussion of pedophilia." Seeing a trigger warning without knowing what the trigger is actually makes me more anxious rather than less. Thank you.

[ilthit]

This is all very strange to me and I'm glad I'm not in a major fandom that would invite this kind of thing.

That is misdirected outrage and I suspect it's because going after actual loli/shota hentai blogs would only get them mocked and doxxed themselves. It's power play.

[killertofuuu]

This. Also, I think there's some egotistical bullshit happening, too. Not social justice for the sake of doing what's right, but for 1) Throwing others under the bus to avoid being bullied/harassed (understandable, but still not right) or 2) To "earn" a moral high ground, thus "knowing" better than anyone else at all times. Ultimately, it is all about power. Power for the wrong reasons even. It's really frustrating.

[staranise]

I spend a lot of time on Tumblr and sometimes read anti-anti blogs to cleanse my soul of all that paranoia. For example, Freedom-of-Fanfic is very clear about anti-ing as a power move, and fozmeadows recently flipped a table quite well.

[darkmarcy]

..Please tell me that the "Hobbits are short and children are short" thing is made up by you, because it seems too plausible for the purity panic hellsite Friendly Remindering, yikes!


EDIT: Oh shit meant to reply to the actual entry, not your comment! Anyways. (Those links are good, thanks for sharing!)

[staranise]

Having seen "you draw adult characters in chibi form being coupley and sexual, you're a pedophile" I have absolute faith that the hobbit thing is real.

[lemonsharks]

IIRC the Hobbit thing was a real thing that got robbed at our hostess back when she was writing a hobbitslash after the first lotr movies came out

[princessofgeeks]

Thanks for the link to Foz Meadows. I hadn't seen that and it's exactly what Minoanmiss was talking about!

[acelightning]

Back in the mid-1990s, a very dear friend of mine who is also a very good writer once wrote an online erotic story, in which a woman who is fairly obviously above the age of consent acts out a mild bondage fantasy with her lover; she dresses as a schoolgirl, and allows him to wrap her tightly in a bedsheet so she can't move. On the basis of a story in which a fictional young woman pretends to be a child, one of the author's acquaintances calls the police to report "child porn". The cops confiscated his computer, and all computer-printed material in his house, and arrested him. It took three days to get the charges dropped and get him out of jail. And the cops never gave him back any of the stuff they took, including his computer. (I will leave you a private message about who was the accuser.)

[amaebi]

1. This all sounds exhausting.
2. I really do think that USians are cranker under Joffrey than used to be the case. And some people seem to me to enjoy it, as lending them energy and a sense of outrage.
3. I admire and support the activist students of Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School, and I understand why they refer to themselves as children acting when adults will not. But as you know, when Chun Woo was about eight I began thinking about when to stop calling him a boy. (Twenty-five-year-old men referring to themselves as boys gives me the pip.) And I decided that when he turned thirteen I would not call him a boy nor his colleagues boys or girls any longer, but young men and young women.
4. I think about the amount of sexual and romantic thinking a lot of adolescents do, if not most of them. And no wonder in a society where people tell toddlers they're going to be heartbreakers.

[princessofgeeks]

wow, this again.

everything really does come around on the guitar again in fandom, doesn't it?

were all these new crop fo fans too young for Harry/Snape? Because HP fandom really grappled with all these issues.

so do any of the fandoms with teenagers in them as characters.

did none of these fans ever remember Buffy?

the high school AU is a thing in pretty much every fandom, as well.

I think you are wise to stay out of it, but it sounds just awful to have to be involved in or read about.

the fact that fandom rarely encounters its own history is a shame. too bad these folks aren't reading Fanlore.

Hang in there.

[sabotabby]

That's so ridiculous. Getting all huffy—let alone doxxing someone—over fiction doesn't help any actual children. I've never encountered it as I don't think I've ever participated in any fandom with major child/teenage characters, which has spared me from seeing this kind of bullshit, but it would get my back up if I did.

[chanaleh]

Good lord. While I in no way minimize the problem of sexual abuse of minors, there are light-years of distance between "pubescent and pre-pubescent children experience sexual feelings (and have agency around same)" and "adults have any business getting up in same".

[eustaciavye77]

This isn't limited to fanfic. I have encountered discussions on tumblr where people insisted that various YA authors are pedophiles because they are adults who write stories about teens and sometimes the teens in the books have sex.
I wonder would these people feel better if there were no YA lit? Because in order for there to be books about teens for teens, there are going to be adults writing about teens and apparently the mere act of doing that is criminal?

[asakiyume]

There are people out there who enjoy causing chaos and distress, and they know how to weaponize anything. They'll take whatever the feared or hated or despised thing-of-the-day is, and they'll find a way to accuse people of that thing, and even more, they'll sow seed so that fear and mistrust and accusations and defenses and all that will continue, self-propelled.

So that's one thing. When you see that happening... well, that's what's happening. It's more about fomenting distress and fighting than it is about talking about X or Y or Z Bad Thing.

And for goodness sake. People can write about a thing without supporting a thing. If I write a character with cancer, it doesn't mean I want everyone to get cancer, or that I'm a cancer victim, or a cancer cell.

[lb_lee]

I get particularly shirty because while I believe there IS a discussion to be held on fiction and fandom being used as grooming--see Marion Zimmer Bradley and Walter Breen--it is a lot more complicated, uncomfortable conversation than simply going after fanfiction or fanart. This is just... extremely black and white hamfisted posturing, and it really pisses me off since you know. I've had experiences with pedophiles and people who I'm pretty much postive WEREN'T pedophiles but sexually abused children for reasons other than orientation.

Plus, I can't help but wonder how many people actually believe this, and how many are trolls purposely trying to make folks with legit questions seem ridiculous, and winning over the very gullible, or the people very desperate to appear part of the in-group with terrible people.

--Rogan

[doomhamster]

I saw someone on tumblr point out recently that most antis, however subconsciously, don't actually WANT to be effective in their struggle against CSA or anything else. They're dependent on their outrage-high and on the sense of community they get from shared hate.

ETA: and re: fozmeadows' excellent post, she touches on another very important aspect of what pedophilia is that tends to be very purposefully ignored. Namely that while adults sexually abusing or preying on teenagers is of course gross and wrong, it's different from pedophilia because a teenager who's gone through puberty and sexual awakening has a mental and emotional context for sexual acts that prepubescent children do not. Something that antis want us to ignore because they want to be able to argue that an adult sexually molesting a 17-year-old is exactly the same thing as doing it to a 7-year-old.

[eustaciavye77]

I've run into this actually with a friend of mine who insisted that having sex with a teenager whose body was post-pubescent is EXACTLY THE SAME as raping a kindergartener. I could NOT get them to wrap their head around the idea that in fact an adult COULD be physically attracted to someone too young for them if that someone had a matured figure, never mind the idea that a 21 year old MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A 14 YEAR OLD AND A 18 YEAR OLD ON SIGHT.

There's a tremendous variation in how people look at different stages of development; I frequently got mistaken for being someone 5 years older than my age when I was a teen. I was fairly naive so I generally blurted out my actual age fairly quickly and then the college guys would back away slowly but I assure you they were not talking to me because they were into kids, they were talking to me because they didn't think I WAS a kid.

[annonynous.livejournal.com]

Yes, you are right to stay away from this Tumblr shit. I am reminded of a Mr. Spock quote from a ST / OT episode, something along the lines of "I find your lack of logic extremely distressing".

Ann O.